Who Is Jesus: Good or God? (Podcast)

Jeshua:

Hey everyone. Thanks for tuning in to Frequentsee Conversations, where we talk about the kingdom of God invading every space in every way. My name's Jeshua. I am sitting down today with KatIa Adams. She's one half of the founders of Frequentsee, and she's also a senior pastor at the Table Boston. I am so excited for our conversation today because we're going to be talking about Jesus. We thought it'd be fun to sit down today and tackle a few big questions around the person of Jesus. First of all, who was he? Was he God? Was he man. And then KatIa shares her own personal experience with who Jesus is and how she encountered Jesus and how she sees Jesus in her day to day life. It's an awesome, awesome episode. Easily one of my favorites out of all the conversations I've had here on this podcast. So, I'm very excited to get started.

Jeshua:

All right, everyone. Welcome back to the Frequentsee Conversations podcast. It's just me and KatIa again here today.

KatIa Adams:

Woohoo!

Jeshua:

Yeah. It's always good to be with you. And I'm excited for today's episode. It's going to be on the topic of Jesus and who he is and we-

KatIa Adams:

It's a great topic, Jeshua.

Jeshua:

Yeah. We've looked through all the topics that we've covered and there's been a lot, but it never hurts to just talk about Jesus. It's the reason that we do what we do. It's the reason that you guys have this ministry called Frequentsee. He just is everything. And not only that, there's a lot of questions about who he is. And so we just thought we'd try to address some of those as best we can and see what happens.

Jeshua:

And Katia, I know you are a preacher by nature. That's who you are. This is a gift that you have, is to just share the love and the kindness of Jesus. Specifically, the kindness is something that comes through in every single one of your sermons, your preaches, your series. They all just carry the kindness of Jesus. And so I'm expectant for this episode to be fun.

KatIa Adams:

I think it's going to be really a great conversation.

Jeshua:

Yeah. So just to start off with the questions, we'll see where it goes. But I just would love to hear from you in your own words, who is Jesus?

KatIa Adams:

What a question, Jeshua. I feel such a sense of privilege and responsibility in answering such a question. Who is Jesus? We can go in so many different ways for that. And I think I want to start first thinking through how the writer of the Book of Hebrews answered that question. I love that book and a few years ago now, gosh, actually when I say a few years ago, probably over a decade ago now, I remember hearing a message by a good friend of ours, a guy called Steph Liston. And he preached through the Book of Hebrews and brought such beautiful clarity to the answer of "who is Jesus" written through that book.

KatIa Adams:

And right at the beginning of the Book of Hebrews, there's this beautiful sentence in Hebrews One that's all about how long ago God spoke through the prophets, but in these days he's spoken through his son. And there's this beautiful introduction right at the beginning that Jesus is God's son, right at the beginning of the Book of Hebrews. But as you read through the next few chapters of the book, the writer of the Book of Hebrews outlines how Jesus is much more than an angel and he's much more than a prophet, but rather he is uniquely the son of God and stands as high priest interceding for men and women and all humanity.

KatIa Adams:

And really that's where I want to start with this question of who is Jesus, in that Jesus is entirely unique in all of history because he wasn't just a good man or a supernatural man or a man who is a messenger from God. Gosh, there's been many, many men and women through the ages who have, whether rightfully or wrongfully, claimed to be messengers from God. But Jesus is 100% unique in humanity in that he is so much more than just a supernatural being or so much more than a prophet even, but he is the very son of God.

KatIa Adams:

That's what the Bible claims. That's what Jesus himself claimed. And we can talk about that in a moment maybe, but there's this beautiful uniqueness to who he is. And so as we approach this question, who is Jesus? Well, the first thing would be is that he is entirely unique because he is the son of God. And when I say that word, even that phrase, son of God, I'm so aware that for some people, the question then arises, "Well, is he really God? Because the son of God, maybe God had a son kind of like Greek or ancient-

Jeshua:

Yeah, Zeus

KatIa Adams:

Yeah, Mythological figures who had sons, but who weren't really goods in themselves. And you know, in the scriptures where that phrase is mentioned, we can look at it in John chapter 10, Jesus talks about being the son of God. He says to the Jews who are ready to stone him, "You're so angry because I said that I was the son of God." And actually at the beginning of chapter 10, when he's talking to the Jews, he references God repeatedly as his father and the Jews, we read it, it's so clear there, that they want to stone him and it says, because talking of God, as his father claiming to be the son of God, meant that he was making himself equal with God.

KatIa Adams:

And so there's this beautiful and plain as day writing in the scriptures that show us the phrase, son of God, does not mean that he was somehow lesser than God, he was this kind of half God, half human hybrid, but rather the phrase son of God, as used in the scriptures, was understood in the day of the scriptures as being God, as being equal to God himself.

KatIa Adams:

And the remarkable thing is on that note, when you read the New Testament, there are over 600 references in the New Testament to Jesus as Lord. And in fact, in Corinthians, Paul writes how we believe in one God, the father, we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ. And that word, Lord, that's used, the Greek word that's referenced there is [Greek language 00:00:07:30] And that word is the same word that's used throughout the Greek Old Testament of God. So, when Paul writes in his writing that there's one Lord Jesus Christ. He's not saying, there's a God, he's the father, and then there's this other being, the Lord Jesus Christ. But in using the very word Lord, he is saying, there is again, God, who is Jesus Christ. Making it really plain for us that Jesus, the son of God, is God himself. Is the fullness of God.

KatIa Adams:

God, if you like, became flesh. That's what the Bible says. He took on humanity, not becoming something lesser, not a created being, but God himself clothed himself with flesh so that he could interrupt the narrative of humanity. So, there is some external processing on who is Jesus for you Jeshua.

Jeshua:

Wow, that's incredible. I actually never knew that about the word lord being that same word used in the old Testament. That's amazing. I love that. You touched on this earlier and just mentioned Jesus was not just a good man. I've heard some people argue that, yeah, sure, Jesus existed. Sure, he had a huge following. He was amazing. People loved him, he created this incredible movement unlike any other that the world has ever seen. But he was just a good man. What is your response to that?

KatIa Adams:

Yeah. I think it's become very popular to see Jesus as some kind of 1960s hippie, where he's talking about love and peace and he's some guru of love and peace and he just teaches really nice things. But people then stop short of seeing him as any of the things that he claimed to be. And I think that's an interesting conclusion to come to, to see him as someone who is loving and good, someone who is a great moral teacher. But ignore the fact that if he wasn't who he was claiming to be, then he was basically one of the most deceitful people on the planet.

Jeshua:

Absolutely.

KatIa Adams:

And I think of what CS Lewis wrote in his book Mere Christianity, which if you haven't read, you've got to read that book. It's a brilliant, brilliant look at Christianity, at who Jesus is. And in that book, he talks about how Jesus could not possibly be just a good moral teacher. And he talks about this idea of Jesus being bad, mad, or God. That's a very brief paraphrase of a profound paragraph in the book, but he basically says that if Jesus, making the claims that he made, the claims that God was his father, the claims that he was the son of God, the claims that he was long awaited Messiah, Jesus made all of those claims. The claims that he had the authority to forgive sins, which in the understanding of Judaism in that day would mean that you were God. Only God had the authority to forgive sins.

KatIa Adams:

All of those things. When he claimed that if we'd seen him, we'd seen the father. Those are claims that Jesus made of who he is. And CS Lewis writes how anyone, if anyone made those claims, but actually wasn't truthful about those claims, which would be the case if Jesus was trying to be just a good moral teacher, then in fact that person wouldn't be good, but either they would be incredibly evil, know that they were lying, and just decide that they wanted to deceive as many people as they could, or they would be mad, that they would be a lunatic that they would genuinely be deceived themselves.

KatIa Adams:

And as a doctor, I've treated patients like this. Genuinely deceived themselves that he was God. It wasn't that he was trying to lie to people. It was that he had believed the lie himself. But what isn't on the table from a point of logic is that Jesus created all these claims and yet was a good moral teacher. You can't, both of those things be true at the same time. If he was lying, he was either deceived or he was the deceiver, but he certainly wasn't a good man lying left, right, and center those two things. Don't co-exist. And so really our options when we look at the person of Jesus, as we read the gospel accounts, and not just the gospel accounts, but other secular accounts, really our only options, our only reasonable and logical conclusions must be that he was either bad, he was either mad, or as crazy as it might sound, he actually was God. Those are three options when we look at him.

Jeshua:

Yeah. And how about people who would argue that he didn't exist at all? Are there people out there that, "Yeah, I know that there is some historical evidence. Is there enough to really believe these stories?"

KatIa Adams:

Yeah. Honestly, if we believe that Alexander the Great existed, if we believe that Julius Caesar existed, then we've got to believe that a man called Jesus from Nazareth existed who went about doing the things that the gospels say that he did because there is such a weight of historical secular scholarship about this man called Jesus who led a group at the time that the gospels talk about Jesus leading a group, who believed that he was God, this man was reported to do incredible miracles. This is the secular writings that talk about this, that this man Jesus was reported to do many miracles, that this man Jesus was indeed crucified.

KatIa Adams:

And that there were reamers, the secular historian, so people like [inaudible 00:13:44] who was a famous secular historian. Didn't come to faith himself, but in his writings he talks about this man Jesus and really corroborates the gospel accounts going so far as to say that there were rumors of his resurrection. But of course being a secular account, he doesn't himself say anything about his own belief in that.

KatIa Adams:

But it's one of those things where we don't have the option to say, "I don't like what the gospels say. And I'm just going to go with, it's all made up. Jesus never existed." If we're starting to say that, then we've got to start saying it's all made up. Julius Caesar didn't exist. The historical accounts are as believable and historically valid as many and all the other ancient texts of that time. And so we've really got to do the hard work at that point because it's not an option for us to read the gospels, read the books of the Bible, to recount the story of Jesus and say, "Nah, he didn't exist." That's an option. History, secular history, non-Christian history has proven time and again that Jesus did exist. There's just too many historical accounts of him.

KatIa Adams:

So, then our options must become, as I said, weighing up those accounts and saying, okay, this man Jesus who taught the things that he did and did the things that he did. Was he crazy? Was he a lunatic? Was he evil? Or was he actually telling us the truth?

Jeshua:

Yeah. So, not only do you and I and Julian and our whole team believe that Jesus existed, that he was God, we believe that you can know him personally and have a relationship with him. You've explained who Jesus is historically and who you believe he is, but who is he to you? How has he revealed himself to you? And what does that relationship look like?

KatIa Adams:

I love that question. I preach this often. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good. But he came to make dead people live. And that's who he is to me. When I met Jesus, and for some of you listening, this will sound crazy. But you can meet him and if you want to, and if you're curious, I challenge you and I invite you to ask him, even now as I'm speaking, "Jesus, if you're real, meet with me." Because he can show you who he is. Some people see him physically, some people hear him audibly. For me it was this internal meeting with him. I don't even know how to describe the words exactly. But I know what happened when I came to an understanding that Jesus is real. Something happened in filling me with a sense of peace and belonging and love like you can't find anywhere else.

KatIa Adams:

And I was just a child when I met Jesus and children tend to be actually pretty good judge of character.

Jeshua:

Yes, they do.

KatIa Adams:

But anyway, my experience of Jesus has simply grown in the years rather than ... I don't really like the same things that I used to like when I was five. My tastes have changed considerably since then. But the one constant, even since I was five, is my affection and my confidence in who Jesus is. He met with me at a very young age. And since then he has consistently met with me and consistently shown me love and affection in moments where I need help, in moments where I'm anxious, in moments where I feel like I've lost all peace. As soon as I start praying and inviting Jesus to come and fill me with his presence, because he does do that in the person of the Holy Spirit who was God himself, as soon as he fills me with his presence, everything changes for me. And that's the point of why Jesus came to earth.

KatIa Adams:

God came to earth in flesh. Jesus himself. And he interrupted the flow of humanity. Not just because he was curious what it would look like for him to be a man. It wasn't some kind of cosmic expedition or experiment, but rather God invaded the narrative of history because he took on flesh so that he could blaze a trail through history, even to the biggest enemy, the most final enemy, that we as humanity face, which is death. He blazed a trail right through to death, allowing himself to be killed on the cross. That's what Jesus says. He says, no one takes his life, but the son of man lays down his own life. God chose for all of those events to happen so that he would literally blaze a trail, not only through life, but right into death, through death, punching a hole through it, if you like, right through to the other side, where three days later, he defeated the most final enemy that you and I could ever face and he rose again from the dead.

KatIa Adams:

And God did that not because he thought it would be a fun experiment, but because he was literally blazing a trail for humanity to follow. The Bible tells us that Jesus is the first of many and the point of God coming to earth in the person of Jesus was that so he would create a way for men and women to walk right from death to life, not just after we die, go to heaven, although that's part of it. But rather in our everyday moments that we would really be alive. In our everyday moments that we would know what peace and joy in their fullness look like. In our every day moments, that we would know what it looks like to not have to be living in anxiety. In our everyday moments, know what it looks like for shame to be totally defeated.

KatIa Adams:

That's the promise of Christianity. And that's been my experience whenever I've turned my face to Jesus in my low moments, in my broken moments, in my weary moments, in my anxious moments. He is remarkable at wiping away anxiety. He's remarkable at reminding us of the fullness of life and inputting that into us, downloading that into us. He is remarkable at washing away shame when we are broken and disappointed by our own failings. And honestly, that last one been probably the most significant experience that I've had with Jesus.

KatIa Adams:

Growing up I grew up in a wonderful Christian family. I grew up in a family that introduced me to Jesus and I'm so grateful for that. And I grew up in this context where I knew what right things were and I was really good at doing lots of right things. But whenever I failed, I felt such a deep sense of shame. Such a deep sense of I am somehow broken and unworthy. Until the more I got to know, Jesus, the more he spoke to me about how much he hates shame and how much he has blazed a way through humanity so that you and I won't experience shame or disappointment in ourselves.

KatIa Adams:

But rather we will allow him to make us whole, and that's really what he's done for me. And that's why I love talking about him. Why wouldn't you want to talk about somewhere like that with people? Someone who makes you feel like you belong, even in your worst state, someone who brings you home. That's what he's done for me. Anyway, I could go on forever, I'm aware I am. I'll stop.

Jeshua:

No, that's beautiful. I love that. Well, we're just about out of time, but it would be a shame if we didn't pray before going out. I'll just lead us in a prayer as we go.

KatIa Adams:

Yeah, let's do that.

Jeshua:

Jesus, we just come before you knowing that you were and are a man who existed and did miracles on the earth, but also recognize that you want to continue to do works in each of our hearts. So father, I just ask that everyone who's listening, whether you have experienced the love of Jesus before, or never even heard of such a thing, that you would just touch their hearts and minds, including ours right here, Lord, that you would just touch us with your love. And we just thank you, Lord, that you are the answer to our shames and our anxieties and our fears and our failures Lord, and that you didn't come to make bad things good. Although you do that. And you didn't come to make us perfect, although you make a way for that. And you didn't come just to get us into heaven, Lord, but you came to bring new life to us. And so we just invite that new life to come to each one of us. And we thank you so much for who you are. Amen.

KatIa Adams:

Amen. I do you just want to say before we finish, of course, that in 23 minutes, it is impossible to do this subject justice. And there is so much beauty about who Jesus is and how he shows us the face of Father God. And so I really want to encourage you, if you've been listening to this and this is all new to you, ask a friend who you know knows Jesus, or look up some great resources online, or read a book called Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, or pick up a New Testament, dare I say, and read the gospel of Mark. These things will give you a much better understanding of who Jesus is. This 20 minutes was just a taster.

Jeshua:

Just a taster, totally.

KatIa Adams:

There is so much that can be said, but I really want to leave us with this. That there is no one who is as kind or as beautiful or as powerful as Jesus is. And he wants each and every one of us to know him.

Jeshua:

Yeah. Amen.

Jeshua:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Frequentsee Conversations. If this was a new conversation for you, I would encourage you to head over to our website, frequentsee.org and check out more of our resources around Jesus. And then also encourage you to get plugged into a local church wherever you may be. If you're in Boston, head over to thetableboston.com to find out more about Katia's church community. But if you're not, you can head over to mightypursuit.com. Mighty Pursuit is an amazing organization that we work close with, but they do the hard work of finding churches in your community and organizing them based on certain criteria and location so that it's easy to find a church community. So go over to mightypursuit.com and type in your location information and you'll be able to get plugged into a local church. Thanks for listening.